This is currently being discussed between rescue workers at the moment regards Springers but can also relate to other breeds as well where they are bred to work.

We are finding more and more young dogs that have been bred from hard working stock, stock that have a real inbuilt drive to work.......... such is the case in the 3 recently rescued pups, these 3 pups have been bred from a bitch that has a reputation of being a good hard worker, the same as the sire, hence why they were mated in the first place, to produce pups that should hopefully carry on in the same way as their parents and be used as workers......people taking on dogs like this need to understand that they need mental and physical stimulation, if they can't be trained to be used as working dogs then they must have their brains and stamina directed at something which will stop them from becoming stir crazy, rescue is recently seeing more young dogs that are cooped up and go demented to the point where they are resorting to shadow chasing and self harm because they cannot mentally cope with having nothing to do. I know some Springers can be laid back and can adapt into a family environment where they are happy to play with the kids, get a few walks in the local park etc but the majority of working bred dogs can have serious mental issues because they cannot do what they were bred to do. These end up in rescue because the breeder has either just sold the last few to anyone in order to get rid of them or has sold or passed them on to someone that thinks they can give the dog a quick walk around the block before they go out to work for the day and then they wonder why the dog is becoming destructive or unmanagable, well what do they expect from a breed that thrives on mental stimulation and physical activity

I take my hat off to good breeders that have already got homes waiting, that have done the correct health checks in both parents and that stipulate 'working homes only'. The advert that says will 'will make excellent workers or family pets' is wrong IMO, what are they then, 'workers' or 'family pets'? In order for them to be both then the person buying them as a family pet must be prepared to get out there and exercise the dog and be capable of training it from a young age to at least get a damn good recall and stay in place, else they can expect the dog to go running off the minute it picks up the scent of a rabbit, pheasant, whatever because that's what this breed and to be honest just about every other breed of dog would do naturally but in the case of a working bred Springer it is far, far stronger an instinct.
Further comments welcome

Sandy

I agree with what Sandy says. Deefa, although working strain, was bred as a pet and she is great as a pet. When we were looking for our 2nd pup we were looking for one that we could specifically train to work and hopefully trial, hence we got Sage.

She has been specifically bred as a hard hunting dog, she will hunt on tarmac her instinct is so great, and I could see that if we hadn't been able to channel those instincts and train her, she would have been a nightmare. She would have been the kind of dog you never saw on a walk, she'd always come back but she'd do what she wanted to first. She is now a pet and a worker, with hopefully a bright trialling future. Her training, as well as Deefa's, is continually ongoing, we can never sit back.

We get great enjoyment out of of the training and seeing our girls working, but we also get great pleasure from cuddles on the sofa.

I don’t think Ollie & Ben are the best bred dogs in the world, so I can’t really compare apples with apples

I think it would be useful to clarify what is meant by “working” – particularly in context of the short bird shooting season, rough shooting, trialling, training etc.

Exercise – I go on the basis of quality rather quantity. I regard a blast off lead (I accept this is free hunting) to be far better and more enjoyable than lead walking around the streets. Of course, a degree of recall is required first! I don’t side with the “a springer needs 2hrs minimum off lead a day” argument. If its blowing a gale and the rains coming down sideways, I’ll play games or do a bit of training indoors. I don’t follow a routine (I’m sad and look at the BBC internet weather forecast!!). I believe my dogs coming to work with me is a significant factor in their behaviour.

So many rescue dogs says to me the whole breeding and ownership thing needs a shake up.

Picking up from Spaceman's comments, to me personally and as this is just a personal opinion and of course others have the right to disagree but I'm talking as Tracey says, 'hard hunting' bred dogs, of which we have most down this way so in all fairness as that's what I see most of then that's what I'll remark upon, this type of Springer is nationwide though so it does actually apply all round.

A hard hunting dog is typically one that will virtually work all year round, just because the season comes to an end at the start of February for the majority of most peoples shooting season around here that doesn't mean the dogs get the chance to put their paws up and relax, they still go out with the keepers to catch up birds, tidy up, get the pens ready for the following season, rabbit, pigeon and other vermin shooting and they still have to be exercised so even when time is a luxury they will still be out running and hunting in their own way under supervision with their handlers. Adding on to this the season doesn't start October 1st either, dogging in can start as early as July, some dogs are out more than 6 hours a day doing this alone! Breed from this type of dog, one that wakes up and just wants to go no matter what the weather or time of day come to that and you get pups with the same attitude and drive. Those to me are the pups that should only be sold to people that are knowledgeable enough to own them and work them or at least be prepared to seek out the relevant trainers that can give them the advice and guidance they need to be able to use the dog to it's full potential and stop it going crazy.

Working strain Springers, a lot of which you find in the towns that have been family pets and have bred generations of Springers that have been sold to town or rural homes where the dogs have played in the park, gone for a run on the beach and have in effect never actually come across the sort of game and quarry the 'hard hunting' dogs have come across seem to be able to cope much better with this sort of environment, although I'm certain given the chance if they were to be taken onto the sort of ground where game is abundant then their natural instincts will kick in and they'll want to go and hunt it and chase it down, hence why there are a lot of postings of how my dogs chases after rabbits, squirrels and pheasants etc.

What irks me and others working in rescue is the breeders of the 'hard hunting' bred dogs selling their pups to town homes or as 'family pets' where they are expecting the dog to accept living in the house, going for walks down the park or just around the streets, some not even getting that. So these dogs become bored, they start to look at anything which will occupy their minds, shadows moving for instance, they become fixated on them to such an extent it's all they want to do, as many people on this forum have found. It might not have been their fault, they could have taken the dog on with this problem or they inadvertently got the dog doing this without realising. You also have the young dogs that are crated or kept in the house for huge amounts of time, they bark, they chew and scratch and then they eventually direct their frustrations on themselves, chewing their paws and tails, real self harming because of their frustration.
What's the answer, they pass it on to rescue or put it in freeads or just turn it out on the streets.

I agree with Spaceman about the quality of exercise for your everyday Springer, even to some extent the 'hard working' springer when the time is quiet around the shooting field, a good run off lead is what they need, it doesn't need to be for hours but is far better than restricted lead walking where it barely gets out of a trot. I also agree with him about his dogs being with him, it's the dogs left on their own with nothing to do or look at that to me is down right cruel and it's a no wonder that they resort to obscure behaviour, well it's obscure to us but to them it's a distraction from having nothing to do.

I have an opinion, again it's personal, if it comes to the situation that a young dog needs drugging to try and get it to mentally switch off from shadow chasing or self harming before anyone can do anything with it then for the sake of the dogs mental state and the fact that what is the likelyhood of finding someone who is willing to take on and work with such a dog, commit to it virtually 24/7, then it should be pts because in the end it's mental state will have an overall effect on it's health especially with the amount of drugs needed to calm it down. IMO it would be cruel to put a young dog through this for any length of time. This mental state is showing far too often of late and the main cause is dogs not being able to cope with their surroundings and the care they are given after being sold by irresponsible breeders to uneducated owners.

I also think that people working in rescue need to thoroughly check out and approve potential new homes and owners to ensure they are able to deal with the 'problem' dogs coming into rescue, they might have a lovely home with a secure back garden but if they don't know how to cope and help a dog that has had problems in the past then it's been a total waste of everyone's time and money and even worse than that absolutely detrimental to the dog in question.

Sandy

Now why can't there be more owners like this? Owners that knew what to expect and have gone the best way of making sure they have happy contented dogs, Tracey and Steve I admire and look up to your dedication and realisation that what you do and have to do is certainly paying off and you are and will be rewarded for your continuing efforts with both Deefa and Sage

Sandy

This is an interesting debate Sandy, and something that I've thought about in a much shallower way since getting Daisy and joining ST. It is obvious there are two different perspectives on dog ownership on here - people like yourselves who have what I would call country dogs, who are working and no less loved than the pampered pooches, but giving them a completely different kind of life to the sector that I would say I fit into, of being a town girl with a pet, in Daisy.

It always puzzles me how the same breed of dog, even accepting each dog is different, can realistically fit into two such different lifestyles. I know a lot of the pet owners on here do training and stuff with thier dogs, which Daisy and I have never really been able to get into, due to lack of time and knowledge, but with her being a blend of two working breeds, I am aware that this winter I need to find more stimulation for her.

Last week, afer she got dropped home from Doggy Day care, she had 2 hours in the house on her own. By the time I got home, she'd got my book off the bedside table and absolutely destroyed it - the whole house was covered, and Daisy is clearly not a fan of Joanne Harris!

Things is, I can't be cross with her, because I realise she did it through boredom. So, this is why we're going to look into agility and flyball, and make more effort to meet up with other doggy owners over the coming months to try and get her more into a doggy lifestyle and less a child substitute!

Not sure if I've said anything worthwhile in that rambling - it's end of season day for me today, so my poor tired little brain in quivering somewhere in the back of my skull! But I guess I want to say thanks for making me consider more what's best for Daisy, and less about cuddles on the settee.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with what Sandy is saying, there are some working type breeders who are deliberately breeding hard working stock and if/ sometimes deliberately working homes cant be found and so they end up in pet homes others such as ESSW are picking up the pieces, we are seeing more and more dogs and it is definitely becoming more frequently with OCD type tendencies through not getting enough mental stimulation, even in some cases working homes pushing there young pups on to quickly and it frying there brain so they go into overdrive and OCD to cope with it.

We aren't talking minor shadow chasing here, we're talking severe shadow chasing to the point they get so hyper with it even when you put them in a dark room or a covered crate so they can't see any shadows thay are still tossing and spinning because the adrenalin is pumping so much they are still getting a thrill from the action.
A case that we've seen recently is then self harming and screaming in pain but getting a buzz from it so he is continuing the behaviour. We are talking a dog of just 10 months old.

We are talking a severe case of OCD this is not a 'normal OCD' case in any shape or means.

What should you do? Try sedatives in order to calm his little mind down and try to get through to get his focus to start distraction techniques and start normal training or do you put the little mite out of his tortured mind with PTS.
Believe me whrn the 'action' starts he is tortured.

These highly bred working type Springer's should not go to every day pet homes that want to give a dog half hour's exercise in a day it isn't enough, these dogs need to give there mind's something to do, if not they find there own amusement and that's when the severe OCD and self harm comes into force through boredom.
This doesn't necessarily have to be in a working home where the dog is out picking up, the training can come from obedience/agility/flyball/heelwork to music, these are all considered work to a dog but for it to work in a pet home the owner has to be 100% committed to giving the dog enough mental stimulation.
Working type springers need to work it's as simple as that.

A great debate! Well done! Well we have 2 working cockers, one a rescu so no idea of his lines but he is a hunter alright! So when we got the second one we wanted to make sure he had enough drive and desire but not too much that I couldnt cope...as a friend told me, theres no point getting a FTChXFTCH if all you want to do it beat or pick up as it would be like taking a ferrari to Morrisons..pointless!

I train Ghillie every day plus two walks and he is doing well, but to the average Jo Public buyng a lovely chocolate puppy I can imagine he would have been handed in to rescue long ago!!!

After yesterday's hour long ramble through the woods and hurs of tug a war with Conker on the garden he still proceeding to dig a whole in my floor....

I can see more and more lovely cutesie cockers ending up in rescue as a consequence and I do think the breeders have a lot to answer for

Very interesting debate....

We hear much the same over here, not with Springers (there are hardly any working bred Springers here), but with breeds like Weimaraners, Border Collies, Aussies, all of which having come into fashion as pets and then going mental because they do not get the work they were bred for. I agree with Sandy, these dogs should either do the job they were bred for, or some other work their talents are suited for. I get the horrors seeing Weimaraners paraded on lead as fashion accessories.... Bad enough if it happens to the Setters, but the Weimies until a few years ago were bred for work only.

Here, we now get hundreds of rescue dogs imported from Spain, many of them having been used as gundogs or hounds. People want to save these dogs and offer them a nice home - and then discover that they can't let them off lead because of the strong prey drive. Mostly they have no idea how to handle this and how to give these dogs the mental and physical exercise they need. Sadly, some rescue organisations refuse to give dogs to people who hunt and would work the dog.

But even with breeds that have been mostly bred as family pets for generations you can have these problems. A posh show bred Golden can be a throwback on his working ancestors. I see so many utterly bored dogs. Some have resigned and potter after their owners, others just do their own thing and never mind their owners.

I think that if you get yourself a dog of an agile and intelligent breed, it is your responsibility to give that dog exercise for brains and legs both. Walking on lead around the block and maybe a play session once or twice a week will not be enough. But I think the work you give the dog to do need not neccessarily be the work the breed was originally bred for. I thought long about this before getting a Welshie; I knew I would have to offer more than simple retrieving games. Being no hunter, I would never get myself a Weimaraner, a Wachtelhund (German Spaniel) or one of the Swiss hound breeds. To give those suitable work without being a hunter, you'd have to really go in for search & rescue work - extremely time consuming. Since the Welshie is bred for dual purpose I thought I could handle it. But I doubt Rhian would be so well balanced, if I offered her no mental stimulation and no jobs to do and just walked her sedately round the park for half an hour!

I'm really pleased at the positive comments so far in this thread, it goes to show at least the ones who have replied understand the situation and the demands a real working dog requires to keep it stable.

There was a lot of upheaval when the hunting ban was brought in and some misguided people thought the hounds could be re homed to pet homes. Sorry but if that happened I bet in 99% if not all cases this would have been a disaster. These dogs know no different, to keep them on lead and kept in a home environment would have been the cruelest form of mental torture going for the dog

At least with a responsible breed rescue, who can recognise not just the breed for what it is as well as the actual breeding background, there's a chance a lot of these dogs can go to the right homes. A Springer Spaniel is a breed, yes but it's the breeding that makes all the difference as to what it's capable of doing. Show strain Springers make better family pets than a lot of working Springers as their prey drive is not so ingrained although there are many breeders of Show Springers that are dual purpose dogs too which is fantastic to see.

Anyone with a working Springer that they don't work and find is nice and calm, biddable and contented with no signs of anxiety or stress then give yourselves a good pat on the back because you've obviously got the balance right to ensure your dog is getting all it needs

Great posts everyone

Sandy

Not really having much if anything to do with the rescue side of things I feel a bit of a fraud posting here but I really feel you dont have to be Einstein to use common sense when it comes to looking at a type of dog as a future pet, you just need to apply that good old fashioned common sense. Get to know the breed!

My mum in Helston recently told me of a really sad case involving a Weimie near her. An rspca rehome (on its 3rd home now) has just had to be pts due to attacking this lady's teenage son during a play session. The lady in question had this poor dog for four years, she kept saying she didnt want to give up on it but the only exercise this poor dog got was a twice daily walk to the shops and back on a lead (approx 1000yds) In the time that my mother knew of her, this poor dog had developed raw patches on its legs that it just could not leave alone, it could not stand still on the lead, it would turn on the spot even if the owner was stood still and had attacked 2 smaller dogs as they walked by on a lead. The final straw came for this poor dog after the lady's son had played a game with a tennis ball with it, went to put it down after the game and the dog was so excited it began jumping at it him, eventually catching his lip with her teeth. The result was 8 stitches. But whats so sad about this is that even my mother, who is by no stretch of the imagination, a dog lover, could see this dog was bored bored bored, and she told the lady this, but she replied that she was not in a position to do anything with the dog. The owner called the rspca for advice after this last incident and they came out and took the dog to be pts.

Vetting a future home and vetting their intentions is just so vitally important and thats where (at least this is how it looks to me) that dedicated breed rescue comes into its own

What a sad story! What on earth were thea thinking of, giving such a demanding breed to a home where nothing would be done with him?

I agree 100% with breed specific rescue. Its kinda weird that I felt really apprehensive about the homecheck - ie scared of failing the vetting process.

Good thought provoking thread this. And also very serious. I'm uncomfortable with any dog having to be pts for the mental grounds Sandy and Selina have mentioned. Admittedly, I haven't seen any first hand with these conditions. It makes me angry (beyond nice words angry) that "man" can inflict this on a dog.

I've been accused of being "fanatical" about my dogs. I'll wear that label with pride - sod what anyone else thinks.

John, I have helped with two dogs showing these extreme OCD signs, it is extremely distressing not just to see but also to 'hear' about which is why I haven't gone into extreme detail on here, the dog's are so 'wound up' that they are getting physical pleasure with the behaviour they are showing there is no getting through to them, at one point one of the foster carers had to physically lie on the dog, not to show that they were top dog or anything along those lines simply to get the dog to stop frantically air snapping at nothing (we think it was dust lights), the dog was completely obsessed and no form of distraction was working, when the dog eventually laid calmly and they were able to release the dog it then started hitting its head against a solid door again and again just pacing back and forth, again this was behaviour it had taught itself before coming into our care to relieve boredom, think along the lines of a stereotypical lion or elephant in a zoo before they knew about animal enrichment.

These are habits that young dogs have taught themselves to prevent stress and boredom, it isn't just extremely hard work, which none of my experienced foster team are scared to put in, we have to put the animal's welfare first and foremost, if we can't get the behaviour under control quickly, you have to ask yourself how long do you leave the dog self mutilating and causing itself severe distress, the medications that we can try to get the dogs focus to start the behavioural side of the work also can have severe side effects, we have to weigh up all of this on a daily basis, the dog must come first and if these habits are self ingrained you must put the dog's welfare first, sadly sometimes that means we have to make that last decision for the sake of the dog, but I can assure you we give the dog every option we can and we pull out all the stops first and foremost.
We have two carers who are experienced in severe OCD type behaviour, we also have vets who have seen this severe OCD type behaviour increasing amongst the working dogs in pet homes scenario over the last few years.
We never take PTS lightly.

I just wish people taking on a working dog didn't take the responsibility quite as lightly either

Selina – I’m behind you guys, in my little way, you know that. I’d never doubt you’re decisions (question maybe, but one of my traits is to question everything, including myself). I understand what you’re saying.