How to describe a 'real' worker, it's really hard to put in words but when you see lots of them its really easy to see, I remember when I hadn't been doing the dog assessing for welfare that long and I went to assess two sister's they were both in a kennel environment and I had a ccess to a large run, one was clearly more sniffy then the other and when I got a ball out she was red hot on it the other happy to play but by no means ball assessed, I just got a feeling for this first one, she clearly wanted to be given instruction and even though she's only known me for about 10-20 minutes was happy to take my lead, I seperated the dogs and did various retrieves and searches with them but from the second I set eyes on the first sister I just knew she was a 'worker'.

The Metropolitan police came down 2 days later based on my report of -*test*-('")s I'd done with her, she went on to clear her police training in record time and we got the highest donation for a dog to be given by the Met because she was such a fantastic worker. At one point they thought she was going to be to intelligent to work for them because she was pre guessing what they were setting up for her :-)

It's hard to describe Jaine without being able to 'show' someone.

Glynis, do you have Bilbo's pedigree, would you mind me having a copy of it with a brief report of his 'history', just for ESSW records and will be private, I'm trying to start a file on shadow chasing/OCD behaviour dogs to see if we can establish any connection that isn't learned behaviour.
Anyone else reading this if you see any connection with any of your own dogs and could provide the same info, with specifically age of dog when behaviour started, what you've tried to stop it etc etc I'd be really appreciative.

I know one of the breed clubs collaberated some info a few years back so maybe the combined material could shed some light.

Just want to say what a great discussion, will keep reading with interest...

And personally, my quick thoughts are that whilst I have two amazing springer boys, I would love to see the day when the only springer you see is in a good working home/environment in the country... I don't think they should be 'family pets' with no working activities....

Now, don't get me wrong I know many of us have these dogs in the city and without working them... and as long as they continue to end up in rescues and are in need of a good loving home, then my door's always open to the breed - I like to think that tho I confess to being oblivious to the working and training that some of you do, I do put in a lot of work keeping my boys stimulated and exercised... But because I can recognise that they are working animals, they were bred to be out in fields and hunting and being on the go 12 hours a day, then expecting them to simply fit in with our more domesticated lives in the 21st century without side effects is showing naivity on the part of a lot of humans... and breeders who sell them on as family pets should get some severe slaps on the wrists if not much worse...

Selina your post had me in tears, it's so sad that you see such created problems in animals and have to make heartbreaking decisions either way...

Sandy, going back to one of your posts early on... I do agree with you that once a dog cannot work anymore then if there's a choice between expecting it to go into a domestic home as a pet or have it PTS, then I too would feel the PTS would be in the better interests of the dog, and thank you for being brave enough to post that... Sometimes I don't say what I really want to on this site, I know it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it, but the fuss a wrong word can create is sometimes enough to get me to keep my mouth shut But there was a thread many months/years ago asking people on here to sign a petition to save a dog (I think it was a German Shepherd) that was an ex-police dog, it couldn't work any longer due to age, and it's fate looked like it was going to be PTS... The petition on here - and not knocking the good intentions of the poster - was to save it, and to encourage the police to re-home it as a family pet... How can that be the responsible thing to do?! as heartbreaking as it is, sometimes we all need to realise as much as much as we don't want to give up on every sweet dog that looks at us with puppy eyes and a wagging tail, some decisions need to be made from the head and not the heart...

I think of how hard you worked with Honey and such a tragedy that you all endured Sandy, and that was with you a responsible highly experienced dog handler and worker, imagine her fate and how much worse it could have been if she had been found and re-homed in another, perhaps less scrupulous, part of the country, to someone with no idea of the breed or the willingness to learn who just wanted a 'cute springer'...

I guess I shouldn't say too much cos on the whole the rescues do a great job... But i think some of them still don't do everything they should when re-homing this breed of dog... My own personal experience of getting Sonny shocked me and make me understand wholeheartedly how these dogs can end up in the wrong homes even when going through rescue channels...

Sorry, I only meant to post one sentence and now I've ended up waffling!

Very interesting thread!

I haven't read in depth past the first page (will do so later) but just wanted to add a little but from my perspective. I guess we fall into the townie pet owner bracket.

I agree with what you've said Sandy to a certain extent. I certainly believe that it's so important to match the right dog to the right home. I used to go on DP quite a lot and it frustrated me so much that so many of the rescues refused to rehome to working homes, citing the cases that they get into rescue that have been kept in kennels all day with no shelter & water etc. Well IMO, that's no more a working home that we are! Also the whole, "won't rehome a dog that will be used to kill another animal" thing. Pur-lease!!!! What about all the dogs as you quite rightly say that end up in rescue because they NEED to work and have ended up destructive or with SA, because their pet home isn't enough for them?! I'm a firm believer in the right home for the right dog, whatever that may be.

HOWEVER, as a townie pet owner with a working breed dog (of unknown lines) I feel that we've managed pretty well. When we got Murphy he was a shadow chaser, and we still after 18 months don't have reliable recall due to his chase instinct/shadow chasing. But we have made HUGE progress with him. When he arrived he was exhausting, always on the go, looking for something to amuse himself. Now (unless it is a sunny day) he is quite happy to curl up on his bean bag and chill out, as he is doing right now. It's not been easy, and I do do a lot of work and training with him. We've gone through KCGC, we do agility, we're now training for competitive obedience. I'll try anything with him to try and stimulate him. I've looked for a gundog trainer locally, but the one I e-mailed never replied. Murph get's left all day with a visit at lunch time and he's quite happy with that. If there is a change to the routine and either of us happens to be at home, he pretty much always just sleeps when we would have been out. Some days we only get time for a quick walk, and due to where we live it may be just lead walking (I have a long line to give him as much running around as I can). On the occasions when we go for a lead walk, we go out for the same length of time, but I train with him. I make him focus on his heel work, sit at every curb, work on left and right turns etc. He still comes back as tired as if he had been running round the entire time. The progress he has made from a tightly coiled working dog spring when we got him, to now is remarkable. OK he still chases shadows, but not in the house any more, and only on a really sunny day. OK, he doesn't have good recall, but yesterday he ran into the house (from chasing shadows in the garden) to the whistle.

So really what I'm trying to say is that working dogs CAN work in townie pet homes, provided it's the right one.

well Ruby's dad was a worker and her mum was a family dog and has never worked. I think Ruby has traits from both. She is equally happy being by herself or chilling in the garden but out in the fields she is nose to ground and is very focused on what she wants to do. I think if i was in the right mind set she could be trained to work.

After my trip to Sandy's when she was a little horror and after seeing Petra's whistle training in sesson i have been whistle training with Ruby and things are going very well. The thing is i dont think i challenge Ruby and that is my fault and a lack of knowlege

I have found this thread very interesting - am interested in what you think of Ruby on first meeting Sandy?

Claire

edited to add - we thought we were ok to cope when we took on George but he was too much for us - i dont think we would ever take on another dog without maybe Fostering first - giving George up broke my heart and i will never ever forgive myself for letting my heart rule my head

TBH if a dog is in such a bad mental state as Selina described earlier, then I think it is quite justified to relieve it by being put to sleep. It's sad and a real shame and I for one would hate to be the one to make such a decision, but would never blame Selina or Sandy for making it.

Having a high drive WSS (other WSS owners said she is very lively for her age and a gundog person said she had great potential to be a worker after seeing her doing gundog training for a day), but who is snoozing for hours on end till her walkies time comes, I can just imagine how bad it must be to have a real worker. I for one would stay well clear of such a dog. Last year in the summer F's regime was mon agility, tue obedience, thu flyball and I always made sure she had a good hour off lead running on these days as well (like on only walkies days) otherwise she was a bit too energetic and not be able to focus .

I know where you're coming from there! I ran out of time for a walk before agility on Saturday, and that combined with a sunny day meant Murphy was as high as a kite! Every time we went in the ring he just charged round and round and round

Just wanted to add it is possible to work your dog and live in the centre of a large town, we do

As most of you probably don't know and I know Selina was surprised when I told her, we have shadow chaser, Heidi, she could be a real obsessive shadow chaser but fortunately we managed to get her under control before it became a real problem.

We bought her as a puppy and wanted a springer with a higher drive then most other workers, so planned it with the breeder for along time for the puppy we wanted.

We started off from day one as we meant to go on, even so, by puppy standards she was hard work, she never stopped, we almost wished she had batteries so we could take them out, the only way to get any peace was to pick her up and nurse her to sleep on our laps.

To give you an idea how forward she was, she was retrieving a rolled up sock to hand at 10 weeks, and the sock was almost as big as her, she would do that none stop all day long if we let her.

As I said it was fortunate that we had good control of her when the shadow chasing started at about 6 months, otherwise I think it would have spiralled in to uncontrollable chasing.

Interestingly, the past month or so we've been really busy, and it's apparent that as we do less with Heidi, so the shadow chasing increases, she spends a good deal of her time at the moment looking for shadows, especially so now the sun has finally decided to come out.

Once we start doing more with our three next week I expect the shadow chasing to decrease once again, given previous experience.

I think the crucial thing with shadow chasers is not the amount of exercise they get, but the amount of mental stimulation they get, if Heidi plays a few hide and seek games she will happily crash on the sofa all day long, if she doesn't, she is up looking for shadows, I think this has a connection with what springers were originally asked to do, that is work intensely a few days a week on the estate shoots, then just chill for the rest of the week, either in the estate kennels or hanging around the kitchens for tidbits and treats off cook.

Fascinating stuff and will just add a wee bit more.

J n T are brothers, in their pedigree there is a lot of show as well as the usual mix, Rytex, Badgercourt etc. If you have spent anytime with either of them you'll see they are like chalk and cheese. Tobes is very laid back in the house, very biddable, yet loves to be out running, J until recently not fussed with outside but completly wired in the house, he would play ball every minute of the day and he needs constant attention.

He's just realised his new passion, pheasants and he is really driven, he actually went missing the other day, only for 5 or so minutes but thats a life time for J when he is normally plodding along. He goes like split and he was shattered when he came back, though still didn't rest when he got home.

Wouldn't say he was one the high working ones though. He has "ball time" at a certain time. And thank god has never shadow chased.

Well for the time I actually got to see Ruby Claire I thought she was a smashing little girl, lovely temperament and with a mind set that would take very well to training, she seemed extremely attentive and focused, she is also very fast!

You definitely want to continue with the whistle training but make sure if the girls join in they use exactly the same whistle commands at the right times because if they peep for no reason or the peeps are muddled and run into each other when they are supposed to be broken this will confuse her.

She's certainly a happy girl and she seems to lead a very busy lifestyle

Sandy

Great - Sandy if you're doing free assessments, can me and Daisy pop in on our way to Cornwall in a couple of weeks????

Then you can confirm what I already know - she's bonkers, just like her mum!

Roberts yer man Pen, he's in Cornwall

It's always open house here, pop in if you're passing

Sandy

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh goody i feel a joint Robert training session coming up - me too - me too - me too

interesting discussion this!! from someone who has got both sides too, rescue - jack - who when once i discovered his keenness to work, was very easily channeled and loves to train. I am not sure if I can ever control him enough in the field true, but time will tell, some believe he will get there, I guess its up to me to have faith in myself!! jack is extremely happy as a pet dog, but needs stimulation in form of training in order to tire him mentally. He will go all day for a run. Having been a stray for god knows how long, he loves people, cuddles, sofas and food!

fonzi I chose from known working lines, from breeders I trust, and with a very brave thought in mind! Kelly, thanks! you are right tho, Fonz is mental, but he is more so like that when out with jack, I think he associates running with jack as "play time". I can honestly say he listens very little to me when out like that, unless I have a ball or a dummy, then I'm more interesting than chasing jack!

however, when out with me alone, he is much more focused, and we are slowly doing basic training with him. I dont believe in pushing the training too much, fonz is just 8 months, and very much a pup. I make breakthroughs one day, completely believing they will be forgotten the next! But, as I'm rambling slightly, what I am trying to say is, he needs and LOVES stimulation of the mental sort. He can be very focused on me, but if I dont keep it interesting and brief, forget it. Although he is a soppy happy house dog, I can imagine he would become very bored very quickly with someone who didnt do gundog work or something that challenged his mind. there is a long way to go, and lots of patience required to control his extremely high working drive to a level that is right for us both, but I know I'll get there, plenty of time - I want him to enjoy being a puppy as well


spaniels as a whole lets face it are clever dogs, and they act the fool, but we all know that the majority of them are not, the only fools are us hoomans who think we can outsmart our dogs!!!!

What a thought provoking thread. My family always had spaniels, a welshie when I was a baby and then a few years later (when my Dad accidentally stumbled on a shoot one day whilst out walking, got accosted by the game keeper who thought my Dad was a poacher and then got talking and invited to join them as a beater) we got our first springer.

From the age of 7 I always went beating with my Dad and not to be outdone when I got to 14 I got and trained my first working cocker She was adorable, high working drive and hard to train. We worked her and as she aged and became a more steady dog i loved her even more, as a youngster she was so hard there were days I wanted to go out without her just so I didn't have to be constantly on alert and continously training.

As Nell got into old age she was retired to a house family dog and adapted to this fantastically, had she been younger I'm not convinced this would have worked. She lived as our family dog to the end of her days but still did retrieve dummy work when out and hunted hedgerows as it would never have crossed my mind to do otherwise.

I now live with my partner and we have had a collie from rescue for the last 5-6 years. He has a high play drive and we do not allow balls in the house otherwise he will sit and watch it endlessly and will not settle until it's been removed. He's very chilled if there are no balls in sight!

Charlie my new springer who is 6 months old today (couldn't keep away from them, once you've had one.....) I've had for a month. He lived with a family with a newborn baby, they tried really hard with him but he was on the go too much and they couldn't cope. The first few days he didn't leave the path but gradually his hunting instinct has kicked in and he's now head down hunting smells and working hedges. He's just finding his feet and we've only just started training but he is being trained as a working dog and we'll see where we go from there. I've met some local beaters since having him (I'm newish to this area and didn't know of any shoots having been out of the circle whilst studying in London) and if his training goes well we'll probably work him. If we don't he'll still be worked on walks and trained as a working dog and hopefully continue to be the happy chilled pup he is now. Since he's been with us he has chilled so much and the uncontrollable whirlwind that was rehomed to us has become a loving family pet within just 4 weeks.

I think given jobs to do and treated as a working dog and trained as such he could be a family pet without actually doing any working. However I don't think he could be a good family pet whilst just taken out for normal walks. 4 weeks of basic learning to work (nothing complex, just normal obedience commands, we're taking it slowly) and he's a different dog. The family admitted if they'd known he would be like this they would never have had him, they didn't expect him to be so energetic and continuous, no one even warned them he might be!

Sorry to waffle and I'm in admiration of some of the stories in this thread. Sandy, Selina, you must see the fall out from this all the time, the work you guys and others on here do is amazing.

I think the only way to solve this is to educate people that despite their beautiful puppy eyes and floppy ears springers aren't always the best family pet (depending on breeding of course). Sadly whilst there's money to make this will never happen