Good discussion..... but can I just say that not everyone takes it lightly..... as most people know my working springer, Bilbo has Hip dysplasia and is a shadow chaser. He has a good pedigree with Rytex and Badgercourt and there are quite a few FTCH. He has had the problem with the shadow chasing since he was a tiny pup, and he's now nearly 5. We are at home all day and he isn't shut in a crate but allowed the run of downstairs. (He has to avoid steps cos of his HD) I've tried all sorts with him, including a behaviourist as he also has dominance issues, which come to the forefront if we let him take an inch. He is well behaved, comes back when called and I give him kongs, treat balls marrow bones and other seeking games..... He can't do the amount of exercise he needs so I try to tire him mentally.

Not everyone gives up on their problem dog, although I've contemplated it believe me....

Glynis, Im with you on that! Conker gave us more problems and blood sweat and tears than I could ever imagine but as far as I was concerned he was my responsibility and I didn't give up and then we realised that in a sadistic kind of way we really enjoyed the challenge we'd had and overcome and so got another one
Sadly not everyone is as resilient. And I often wonder what would have happened to him if we threw the towel in.... just glad we didn't.

An interesting thread, I have been unsure if to post this afternoon – but have decided to tell my story….

We lost our springer at the age of 14yrs and we missed having one around, so decided to re-home a springer and not get a puppy this time, we felt we had a great life to offer a dog, plenty off walks with myself, hubby and parents, as well as coming to the yard and able to take to work, so I felt all avenues where covered in looking after one, and as we had had a springer before felt that our arrangement worked.

We went to a rescue (recommended by a friend) and after much deliberating choose a 7mth springer bitch that had been rescued from Ireland along with siblings after the breeder couldn`t sell them, we wanted a biddable pup to train which would be good with our son, we told the rescue this and we took her home.

She settled in very well, toilet training cracked well, didn`t mind being left for short periods and got on well with my son, started walking her practicing recall went well, then 2 weeks after we got her the she found her legs, started chasing birds and was a full on independant hunting machine, everywhere out walking in park and in the garden. I realised that I need help, rang rescue they said `well keep her on a lead then and if you don`t want her return her and we will rehome to someone that wants her`…. So I went to dog classes and they said `she will never be off a lead as she was the most driven springer they had seen` I didn`t want her on a lead so I decided I needed help from someone knowing the breed, a gundog trainer.. I was lucky to find a local trainer and off we went.

When I opened the boot his eyes popped out on storks `my god you have a full Rytex working springer their, that’s why your having all this trouble` and that was the beginning off a long and frustracting road….. I had to give up all ideas of walking her like normal dogs, she had to be worked I had no idea on what to do and it wasn`t what I had wanted to do. I had to learn very quickly with a full on driven springer, it was like learning to drive in a ferrai when really I should be in a fiesta, not idea first gundog, but I wanted to sucseed so that was the route needed to be taken. It has been very hard as I have had no helo in exercising her as all my plans on help are not able to help, and then last year my hubby had a terrible back accident and is unable to help me.

With my trainer we have come a long way but it has been very hard emotionally and £££, but I so want to get their, its been so frustrating with one small step forward and loads back, and I`ve been back to basics so many times I`ve lost count, but we were getting their. Then she got away from me just once and all my work unravelled before my eyes, and back to basics again, but I was exhausted by it… I decided to re-home her as I was beginning to resent her and our relationship was suffering, I went to a lesson with my trainer and told him my plans, he suggested having her for a while to let me think about letting her go, and to give me a brake, I missed her so much and was so frightened about how I would feel after she was gone, I knew as did my friends and family it would eat me up… so with a heavy heart I decided to let her stay with my trainer, she is their on `livery` and I go everyweek for a evening walk with her, a lesson and Sunday group training, so she`s still mine but he is looking after the day to day running off her. Its not an ideal arrangement but it is working she`s getting the exercise needed and is very happy, which makes me happy to see her doing her thing.

I miss her terribly, but she is NOT your pet springer but a full on driven hunting machine that needs to have that channelled with an experienced handler, at the moment I`m not a fully experienced handler but getting their, I know I will get their and will be able to have her back, if I gave up on her I would never know and have that chance, maybe I`m being selfish in keeping her, but I have seen major improvements with us I choose her and have to do what is right for us both, I can`t give up on her so at the moment this is the best arrangement and it is working well for us.

I found it over whelming have to do it all myself, their are people to help but she is just to much for them, and with a full time job, child and a horse ( can`t take her their to many rabbits, birds for her to chase) i just drove myself into the ground trying to do it all.

Sorry this has turned into a long piece, but I wanted to tell that not all people who run into problems, come into it blind and will do what ever is needed.......

Hi Glynis, great to hear from you after so long

Was Bilbo the first Springer Spaniel you owned? Did you get him to work or have him as a pet where he wouldn't experience life as a working dog?

Is there anything you think you could have done from the beginning to have caused Bilbo to start shadow chasing? Looking back and knowing that he was from such strong working lines as the 2 you've mentioned do you think he would have behaved the same way if he had been sold to a home where he would have worked? Do you feel responsible for his behaviour? Had he already been doing this before you owned him but you weren't aware until you got him home? I only ask because you say he's being doing this from a tiny pup. Were you aware of what he was doing from the off and did you see it as some sort of game to begin with and unintentionally encourage it?

This is difficult to discuss without me feeling as if I am apportioning blame because I don't know the circumstances which caused Bilbo's shadow chasing in the first place. I just wondered if there was a time when you realised exactly what it was he was doing and if you sought any help then or if you can pinpoint the exact time it all started and what might have caused it in the first place. Information you can give will go a very long way in getting others to recognise the signs and hopefully prevent another dog from developing this sort of behaviour as it is after all a conditioned behaviour brought on by stress or perhaps it could even have been brought on by pain arising from the start of his HD.

The mere fact that you have stuck with Bilbo for so long is absolute credit to you and how you have dealt with his problems should be a lesson to everyone that could give up so easily, you clearly took on a dog and it was for life.

Glynis please, please don't think I am having a go at you, I thought long and hard about this post and if I should say the things I have said but it would be extremely helpful if you could answer the questions I've asked as it could go a long way in preventing others from having dogs who could turn out this way and I apologise in advance if you have found my post upsetting, it wasn't my intention.

Sandy

Hi Amanda

You had me in tears...Im sure she is happy and as you say, one day.......

spaniel07 thank you for your post, clearly a very sensible decision taken on both your parts and I highly commend you for doing what you did, there is light at the end of the tunnel and I'm sure with the determination you have and feel you'll get your dog back where she belongs, well done you! It's nice you can be happy knowing she's happy and it will all come together, sometimes it takes the younger ones a while before they can accept that they can have the freedom and enjoy life once they realise they have to obey commands and being where she is now she should soon settle down and it will all click into place. Please keep us posted on her progress it would be lovely to know you are both back working together as a pair and that she's home again

Sandy

What a great discussion!

Unfortunately it is rapidly turning out the same with the working cocker. People see a cute little pup with less 'hair' to groom and they think i'll get one of those'. What they don't realise is that the cute pup soon turns into a complete nutter if its bored!

Before becoming a failed fosterer,(yes, another working cocker!), i did some fostering for a couple of rescues and mostly i had working spaniels to stay. A few of them were 'oldies', happily re-homed now, but increasingly the dogs were getting younger and younger.

My last foster was a dog that ended up with a young mum with 2 toddlers, living in a flat and slowly going mad!

I admit, i don't work my dogs in the traditional way, i do working trials and tracking with a bit of flyball and agilty thrown in for good measure.

When i got my first working cocker, as i didn't want to do shooting work with her, it took me ages to find a good breeder which would let me even go on a waiting list! I ended up conversing with Tizzy's breeder for about 8 months before she siad i could have a puppy, i had to prove that i could look after a working dog.

Sadly as they get more and more popular as just 'pets' there will be more and more working spaniels of all sorts in rescues. Brittanys are going the same way now as well.

Very very sad.

Ali

spaniel07 I think you have made a very brave and unselfish decision in putting your dog first, and I really hope that you can work through things with her, it sounds like your trainer is also a good friend and will give you all the help that you need, but please, if you do get to the stage where you think she would be better suited to a full time working home, that isn't letting her down, that is doing the right thing by her, you're always welcome to give me a ring and have a chat just as a sounding board.

John, I know you support everything we do, you're great in that way, I just needed to explain things a little bit more detailed to show that everything isn't always black and white, there are dogs out there that we try everything we can with them and at the end of the day the damage is already done and there is nothing more we can do but give that dog peace. To me that isn't failing the dog it's doing right by it

Equally I don't want to sound all doom and gloom, I also know there are pet homes out there that do not give up and they do go that extra 100 miles to ensure the dog's needs are met I have homed working type dogs to pet homes because I know that that individual home will give the dog every bit of mental stimulation it needs by way of general obedience and/or agility.

i got Ollie who was bred from two working Springers. He came to me with issues which i think i put in my very first post. He was extremely scared of people and dogs. He now gets on well with dogs but cannot bear people approaching him that he doesnt know, he will still hide behind my legs.
If im truthful i should have asked why he was the last puppy of that litter to be sold at 12 weeks and should have asked why he was so fearful from the start.
We have worked hard with him and he has a fantastic drive and spirit but i am to start gundog training with him soon but my problem is that i am worried he will be so scared of the trainers he wont enjoy it.
We have been doing some dummie work with him, and he loves it. He is very intelligent (as most seem to be) but im worried this fear of unknown people will hamper his natural gundog desire.
I agree with most on this thread and I think if you havnt got time or commitment to let them live in the way they need to then you will end up with a nightmare.
Some people might say that i shouldnt have bought him when i could see how nervous and scared he was but that (rightly or wrongly) stopped me from walking away.

Right...sorry for this folks. You'd better make a cuppa first.

Was Bilbo the first Springer Spaniel you owned?

Yes, I previously had 2 GSD's and a GSP. They were all taken to obedience training and with my first GSD, Jasper, we won several awards. I always wanted a spaniel but my OH was a GSD man. When they eventually died from old age I got my wish.

Did you get him to work or have him as a pet where he wouldn't experience life as a working dog?

A pet really, but I did intend to work him and do obedience ( I Know!!!! naive or what?) Unfortunately the HD put paid to that...

Is there anything you think you could have done from the beginning to have caused Bilbo to start shadow chasing?

No idea whatsover. He was treated exactly the same as my other dogs had been..

Looking back and knowing that he was from such strong working lines as the 2 you've mentioned do you think he would have behaved the same way if he had been sold to a home where he would have worked? Do you feel responsible for his behaviour?

Not at all... I think the main reason is the HD, as he can't physically tire himself out. On vet's orders, I have to restrict his running as he will go on and on, getting curlier and curlier as he compensates for the discomfort. It is really upsetting to watch him.
As for his working lines, no, I knew nothing about that when I got him... He was just a cute puppy at 3 weeks when I picked him from the rest of the litter. I was very naive...I was actually impressed that Bilbo had the white 'rytex' ear. The breeder supplies dogs for the police force. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have bought him. Certainly not as a pet. We actually wanted a different pup, a little black and white bitch but he was keeping her.The farmer/breeder knew what I wanted to do with my puppy and he didn't try to dissuade me at all... I think it was all about the £300 I was giving him. When Bilbo was diagnosed at 7 months he just said..'Oh I didn't know they got that' I got in touch with The Kennel Club but they weren't interested. Unfortunately, having Bilbo has put my OH off springers for life.

Had he already been doing this before you owned him but you weren't aware until you got him home? I only ask because you say he's being doing this from a tiny pup. Were you aware of what he was doing from the off and did you see it as some sort of game to begin with and unintentionally encourage it?

He did it right from the start but we thought it was just normal puppy behaviour. (I had never even heard of shadow chasing at that time. ) Like when they have 'mad half hours' except it was all the time with him. We couldn't watch a tv programme for him and the only relief we got was when we put him in the hall way behind a gate. Then he'd settle and sleep. We were more concerned about the way he moved as his hips were very floppy when he walked. The vet said he was ok

This is difficult to discuss without me feeling as if I am apportioning blame because I don't know the circumstances which caused Bilbo's shadow chasing in the first place. I just wondered if there was a time when you realised exactly what it was he was doing and if you sought any help then or if you can pinpoint the exact time it all started and what might have caused it in the first place. Information you can give will go a very long way in getting others to recognise the signs and hopefully prevent another dog from developing this sort of behaviour as it is after all a conditioned behaviour brought on by stress or perhaps it could even have been brought on by pain arising from the start of his HD.

I don't feel to blame at all....except in my naivety at buying a working dog. We have done everything possible for him and more. We were at the vets every week, and no insurance. I've tried rescue remedy, DAP plugs, herbal tablets to calm him, behaviourist. I cut out anything with additives, went down the Barf route....we have tried everything !!The vet didn't want to start him on sedatives in view of his young age. I daren't count up financially as my OH would have a heart attack...

Glynis please, please don't think I am having a go at you, I thought long and hard about this post and if I should say the things I have said but it would be extremely helpful if you could answer the questions I've asked as it could go a long way in preventing others from having dogs who could turn out this way and I apologise in advance if you have found my post upsetting, it wasn't my intention.

Don't worry Sandy, I know you aren't having a go at me. If it helps someone else in the same postion it's worth it. I have soul searched the rights and wrongs of owning this dog since he was tiny. He has been a heartache for us. My family think we are mad for keeping him and my sister who used to dog sit for me when we went away refuses to have Bilbo....'cos he's barmy'. We have little Norris, who was previously bashed before I rescued him... he adores me to death and follows me like a little sheep. Bilbo does his own thing, he rarely even comes for a cuddle.(Although when we are out, he's obedient.) It's as though he's in his own world and we are only allowed to enter it every so often. Does that makes sense?

So are we talking working springers in general ? Or ones like say Sage ? Bred for work.

And how can you tell, I mean with the ones coming into rescue with no papers etc ? Do they look a certain way ?

Good discussion

I'm not sure that they all 'look a certain way' - but definitely behaviourally - you can tell almost straight away

Glynis thank you for your honest and frank reply, it's very much appreciated and I hope will go a long way towards making people understand not just the importance of where but from whom they buy their pups from, Bilbo's breeder I'm sure you'll agree wasn't that knowledgable and was more concerned about how much he could make from selling the pups, it would be interesting to know how many if any of the same litter and any litter which might have been bred from the same dogs are suffering from HD

Sandy

Thanks Sandy We do our best, we're lucky that we found a great trainer to work with and have made a great network of friends. In fact we've just got back in from a group session this afternoon, followed by a BBQ with everyone.

We're just moving on to cold game retrieves with Sage in preparation for the coming season. Steve and Deefa should be out on their first shoot of the season on the first Saturday in October.

I agree with Kelly, I can tell by the way a Springer behaves after a few minutes under certain circumstances/conditions as to how driven it is.

Sandy