I have a theory..... & thought I'd see what you guys thought of it - I've already put it to a few friends and had mixed responses !

We all know of springers, working cockers, that have been rehomed due to biting a child, behaving like loonies - owners can't cope etc.

We all talk about mental stimulation, activity games etc for our working strain dogs and advise people who are getting working springers and cockers to be prepared for lots of interaction and training etc.

Then this thought crossed my mind - the kennels that Hattie came from - he has approx 30 dogs - all working strains lab, springer, and cocker.
They are kennelled approx 22 hrs a day - either in twos, or threes.
They do not make a sound when you visit - not one barked each time I
went there. They all looked very happy wagging tails (or stumps !),
but not at all hyper.

Now - they don't get much mental stimulation do they - so why aren't they loopy - like the ones we all know of that live in houses ? they get barely any human attention - and they had no toys to play with. They are let out into a compound a few times a day, and perhaps actually "work " once or twice a week.

My thoughts were this - perhaps dogs (especially these types of working dogs) are meant to be kennelled - praps the dogs that go nuts living in houses do so, because they are OVER stimulated - wound up by - kids, tv, noise, furniture, general day to day life in a house. Praps they would be calmer and happier living in
outdoor kennels.

Whaddya think ?

You've got me thinking back to all the kennels I visited whilst looking for a dog and I have to say the dogs rarely barked, the ones I remember barking were the ones that weren't fond of men or had fear notices of some kind up.

What you say really makes sense. I don't know if this adds to the theory or not but after Rufus and I have been out for a good training session and he's been on a long line and allowed to play he comes home and he tears around the house throwing his toys around like a complete lunatic, he does this after nearly every walk where he has been highly stimulated ie throwing treats into long grass so he has to find them, recall, touch hand for a click and treat etc.
Is this something entirely different????

I think there might be something in that, HOWEVER, the people who work their gundogs do not want an agressive dog, or a loopy one in their kennel. They sort the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. When on a shoot, all the dogs are mixed in together and you can't have your dog picking fights with other dogs. If you are beating, you are in a back of a beaters wagon with people, sometimes children and lots of dogs. Quite often, there is hardly any room to put your feet on the floor so you are pushing dogs out of the way. If they have an agressive dog in their kennel, they get rid. They only breed from the dogs that have had a few good seasons working and they will find out if they are 100% around other dogs and children. Of course, there are always exceptions to this rule but I think that's why a lot of these working gundog types who have a kennel full of dogs, have good, even tempered dogs.

It's amazing to be on a shoot and see sometimes up to 30 labs/spaniels etc interacting and I have to say, the only fights I have seen have mainly been between male, black labs.

Getting back to your point, I think there is some truth in it as I think that dogs in kennels are allowed their personal space. If a puppy is being constantly harrassed by someone, something is going to give.

Helen

Hands up!! I don't walk mine every day, infact for a lot of the time they're ignored except for feeding time and the odd (three or 4 times a week) training session. This seems to suit them, they are keen to work when required, but it's certainly suited Missy as a friend who knew her when she first came to me saw her for the first time in ages yesterday, and remarked how calm and laid back she was, particularly amongst other dogs...........

In the past I have had a strict routine for my dogs, big mistake, I used to walk the dogs each morning before I left work and then again immediately I came back just after lunch, they my partner would walk them in the evening. What I ended up with were 2 very demanding dogs who wouldn't give you a minutes peace until their needs had been met.
Now I no longer stick to routines, excep[t the early morning walk as this can't be changed, but rest of the day is as and when, same with feeding.
Now I have very relaxed happy dogs who don;t get at all excited until leads are moved, & if for some reason I can't take them out they just sleep.

I agree with Ingrid.
Mine are walked every day but not at the same time always and sometimes its just one walk, sometimes 2 or 3. same with feeding. My reasoning if for some reason you can't feed/walk them at set time they don't worry.

I think there may well be something in this. Alfie def seems to take his lead from me. If I am active, playing with his toys etc he will react in a similar fashion. However, if we are sitting quiet watching tv or reading etc he will come up with a toy but once it has been made clear that we don't want to 'play' he will simply lie down ( well 9/10 he will )

Its also been very clear this week as I have been off work poorly and he has simply been lying next to me, sleeping when I do and keeping me company in my misery. Has also missed a couple of days walking and seemed to take it in his stride and, if anything, is calmer than normal.......

However, it could be the simple fact that I am keeping him away from his normal daytime nap routine (Mum, go back to work, I usually sleep at this time of the day! You're keeping me awake )

Hmmmmm I think an experiment is in order here

Megan's the same - we always put her toy away and just walk for the last few minutes, to let her calm down, otherwise she's still hyper when we get in and wants to carry on retreiving.

Helen - good point about the selected population in working kennels. I wouldn't have thought of that!

'By the book', Megan is probably horribly understimulated for a working springer, because eventhough I'm at home all day, I'm still working most of the time. She's fine, though - very, very calm and laid-back, and even though she knows she can have bubbles prettry much whenever she wants them, she's happy to lie around, sit in the window watching the world go by, and only occasionaly have a mad five minutes playing with Archie (who's a lurcher and therefore in a coma most of the time!). They do have plenty of activity toys and hide-and-seek, but she's not the sluigh-*test*-('") bit bothered if nothing at all happens for big chunks of the day! When we have visitors here and it's all eventful, she's much more hyper, but she actually tends to get to a certain point and then 'put herself away' under the sofa to chill out.

I think we need a happy medium with this kind of dog - not all of them would suit a kennel lifestyle, but 'calm' doesn't have to mean 'bored'.

I agree, its just finding that happy medium

I also thought that the more intelligent breeds can find stimulation in anything - a newspaper to rip up, a shoe, furniture to jump on - which is why in kennels - with the stimulation taken away, they are calmer. I do think that less intelligent dogs are calmer anyway because it doesn't occur to them to do these things - no offence intended to the less intelligent dogs .

I wasn't really just talking about not walking your dogs at certain times, and not having routines, more referring to the actual kenneling situation where dogs don't get anywhere near the same amount of human interaction, and there aren't "things" around to stimulate them all the time. There is also nothing to guard, so possessiveness doesn't become an issue (unless they guard their kennel of course !) like it often does with these breeds in a home situation. Helen is right though, of course working gundog kennels wouldn't breed from anything with a dodgy temperament and therefore all their dogs would be steady. I wonder though, bring them into a house, and what would happen ? would they still be as calm - Helen ? was Rosie kennelled before she came to live with you ? another point just of interest to me really - is that if Lola was kennelled she wouldn't have to suffer from the dust mites allergy which is causing her great misery - having said all this I'd hate to have them live out - which is why they will continue to live in the house ! still not sure though, which would be mentally - and physically - better for them.

I know the keeper who we got her from did have her inside sometimes (he does that with any new dogs he gets to get to know them) but he told us she wasn't housetrained so I imagine she wasn't in the house very often, certainly not for the past 12 months. I would have thought she was kenneled by the guy who he got her from. She was VERY calm and settled into the house no problems. We've had the odd wee but that's down to us not reading her signs. I think that most dogs who are kenneled and then brought into the house would be calm (there are of course exceptions).

Another instance of a dog being kenneled 24/7 and then going into a home environment is the red and white setter that Rob's boss bought. She was about 5 and had never been in a house. She settled in fine, although a little nervous.

I have a kennel for Lucky, Milly and Pippa (Lucky and Milly like to eat things in the house and Pippa enjoys playing with Milly during the day) - Rosie as well as she's in season at the moment. They are left in there whenever we are out. Holly, Goldy and Harvey stay in. There is just the one kennel and run so they are together all the time. All I need to say to them is kennel and they run in, tails wagging, waiting for their biscuit. They watch the shepherds and farmers about and ocasionally bark at their dogs. I think it gives them stimulation to have things going on around them.

Helen

Interesting -

I think what you need to remember though is that most of the dogs that are in Steve's kennel are there for training, either one to one gundog training and are there for a specific time and then go back to their owner or are in for detection training and once trained again go off to their handlers or onto their full time jobs. During the season the working dogs will be worked for very long hours. Its not really a true picture of the dogs life in total that you saw, so its a little misleading just in my opinion.

From a personal situation - My dogs are extremely calm around the house, peeps constantly say when out on walks 'bet your house is like a madhouse' wellll.. errrmm yes actually.... but only cos I have kids LOL, the dogs are extremely active when exercised, we do a lot of training when out etc, a lot of beach or woodland walks they get a lot of stimulation out and about , but in the house, they lounge around , they only spring into life when the leads come out
we do search training in the house, but even then I dont have them charge around like demons lol.

Its an interesting thought though and I personally think too much stimulation does not do any good, so totally agree with that, dogs need to be able to unwind mentally as well as physically, so I do tend to agree to a point I think its more a reflection on how the dogs are treated and trained and exercised when not in their kennels tbh

yes I agree with that I think dogs or any animal responds to have you treat them and how you are around them, Florrie knows when its walk time or garden time but agnin is usually quiet around the house, animals can also pick up on your moods ie if your nervous/excited etc. I ride horses and they can read you like you can read them

That's how it is at ours. We've been beating today, without a dog for various reasons so the dogs were left for most of the day. They had a walk this morning and again when we got in. I have 7 sleepy dogs curled up in various dog beds and furniture.

Whilst on their walk, they all charged around but as soon as they came in, they settled and they will be like that for the rest of the evening. They have probably had a lot less attention/stimulation/exercise today than a lot of dogs but they are all calm.

One thing I do believe, is that you can over-exercise. The more you give, the more they want. All my dogs are extremelly fit on what they get and I imagine a lot of people give their dogs more. There is a labrador on one of the shoots we go to who gets more than 4 miles exercise in the morning. The owner is on a quad bike for 4 miles while he checks his sheep so the dog would be getting a lot more. He looks extremelly muscly and fit but he is the worst behaved dog on the shoot. He is totally hyper and NEVER settles.

Helen