Ihave posted on the wrong section regarding the trouble i have had, canine kelly said to start a new thread to get advice so anyone who wants to read this story [though not a nice one ] please go to springer chat under the section she growled at me entry ,page 3. It would take to long to repeat it on here as a long story.

Paulines Original post:

Hi i read this thread with great interest as i have had one hell of a couple of days it even got to the stage where letting dexter go was considered as the situation scared me so much. Dexter is nearly 1 and murphy is a 4 year old jack russell, i got home from work on thursday at 12.30 and after meeting and greeting them i decided to give them all a hide chew each [big mistake] dexter took his ,murphy took his ,and ellie my lab took but dropped hers. Murphy picked it up and i said to him can ellie have that ,he let me give it to her but just as i was handing it over dexter flew out of his bed to claim it. Well all hell let loose murphy went at dexter as if to say thats hers not yours and the pair had a horrible fight. Idid not know what to do as i was home alone ,ellie sat back while the other two nearly killed each other , i tried throwing water on them but they were too busy biting each other to notice i said leave , get off etc so i ended up leaving them to it while i found someone to help. I took ellie with me down the garden and thank god two men dog walkers were coming off the field so i got them to go indoors to check the situation out. Iheard one say oh god he needs a vet and he came out with dexter covered in blood i put him in the shed to check him out separate then went in my house to see murphy. Blood was all over the kitchen floor and poor little thing was in shock under the table loosing a fair bit of blood. When i got him out dexter had ripped his side and had a hole on the other as well, i rang for hubby and son to come from work so i could get murphy to a vet. Dexter was none the worse except for a cut to his ear where murphy had tried to bite back,the blood on dexter was murphys. Murphy has had to have his holes stappled and been treated for shock i just got a bill for 103.00 and left a wreck. Ihave separated the two for now as his staples come out next friday so they only meet for wee breaks, i know they willhave to get over it and it is a male thing[both done] but i have had to ban chews etc as i can not do that again i just pray it will not happen again as i felt so helpless ,any tips anyone what to do if a fight starts again as it has left me so nervous?

Pauline, how frightening for you. fortunately i have never been in that situation so i am not talking from personal experience. A friend of mine had a dog aggressive B.Collie, he would attack with no obvious warning, she used to put a coat or blanket over his head to cover his eyes - she says this was the only way should could get him to stop albeit for a second or 2, then she was able to drag him off.

How about a pet corrector - would the noise shock them long enough for you to be able to part them?

Hope both dogs and you are recovering.

Lots of healing thoughts

Sam and Angel

How are the boys now Pauline??? Is there still any tension or avoidance from them??

You are definitely right to ban chews to avoid a repeat. Do the dogs all have areas they can go to have some 'them' time - crates etc??? Perhaps you could use these if you did want to treat them, then they could eat without any problem.

Is Dexter still entire? It sounds very much as though Dexter was pushing it and not being very tolerant of others having things he regards as 'being his'. The launching across a room is certainly not acceptable behaviour. Is Dexter usually in control, by this I mean dictates whats going on . . as far as the other dogs go?? Does he generally guard things?

Edited to add:
Breaking up fights, loud noises such as banging pans, pet corrector could be tried, grabbing the dog at the base of the tail (to lessen the chance of you being bitten) people also use towels to throw over the dogs and then pull them apart. In the heat of the moment though, I suppose whatever you have to hand

copied my reply from the other thread;

ooh blimey, you poor thing -

I have a can of 'pet corrector' air spray which allegedly makes a real racket - its stood on a shelf in the kitchen for emergency use only - not sure if it would stop a fight or not though...

though obviously prevention is the way to go - and there are others on here with lots of dog behaviour experience who i am sure will have some positive ideas for you -

take care

Pol

The pair of them are both castrated i had dexter done about a fortnight to three weeks ago as he was showing dominance over murphy then .By this he did the following, when murphy went for a wee he would follow straight away to scent over where he had been, if ellie my lab went he never waited for her to finish he weed over her instantly as if to claim her and he decided to scent mark my kitchen bin and back door. Since being done he has stopped indoor marking and weeing on ellie but since the fight he has gone back to following murphy outside to scent mark the spot as if to be top dog. They are ok if someone is in the room with them on stand by as both still eyeball each other and it does not help that dexter is sniffing and licking murphys stappled wounds, i understand that it is natural for them to be checking each other out i am just scared that murphy will snap and we are at it again. I know they say fight or flee and i do think that murphy wanted to flee but as he only a jack russell he stood no chance with dexter towering over him. When i tried to part them dexter had his teeth in murphys side and murphy held onto dexters ear so that was when i ran to get a different voice involved hence the male dog walkers. Ithink the shock of a different male voice in my kitchen did the trick parting them i was so grateful. Tommorrow when i am at work i will leave murphy in the front room [where he is now ] then i can have peace of mind that they will still be in one piece when i return.

i think i read that it can take some time for -*test*-('")osterone levels to stabilize after castration - maybe things will improve given a little more time

Pauline - I really feel for you. There are so many things going on here it will be difficult to address in a post, but I'll certainly try.

Dexter may be a little emotionally unsettled after his castration . . .If he was 'top dog' so to speak then the general advice is to neuter the lower ranking dog. By neutering the top dog, it can send the pack into a state of flux . . .expecially if Murphy and Ellie had accepted him as top dog.

I imagine both dogs will be uneasy for a while yet . . they will be very wary of each other and a lot of nervous tension. You would need to work on building their relationship back up again.

With regard to the flying across the room . . I will leave this to another forum member (Tracey) as I believe she had a similar issue over food, it has taken a lot of hard work but she has worked through this.

I would consider consulting a behaviourist over this to help you and the dogs get back on track.

x

My motto is any sudden change in behaviour get a vet check. But I think maybe in this case the reason is obvious (although it's easy to jump on the obvious and ignore the real reason). I think you've had the wrong dog castrated, with the added accelerant of a bitch in the house How was Murphy about being 'dominated'? Was this also causing problems?

Many years ago, I was in a similar situation - two castrated males, who'd actually got along fine, until we added a speyed bitch, and then all hell let loose. The best solution for me (I'd also added to the problem by having a horrendous horse riding accident) was to have one rehomed, heartbreaking as it was, I wasn't in a fit state to deal with their issues.

When was Murphy castrated?

i can only speak from personal experience of the little boys op but since i had mine done 4 months ago that for the first 3 any dog he met hated him but its back to normal now, not sure if its a scent they give off till there hormones settle down but when out walking my 3 the newbie would always be singled out

Oh hell Sending huge hugs.

Ok, this is not addressing the fight issue which does certainly seem to be resource motivated and as such hopefully manageable if you control flashpoints. With my boys I know that I can feed my food guarder with only one of the others and that I can verbally manage Freddy if he moves in on Brice while Brice will concede food so no fight. The others wouldn't back down so we don't -*test*-('") it.

I have had a number of fights over the years (not just with the current crop of dogs) and they do seem to fall into "spat" which is sharp, short and quickly forgotten or "to the death" which is where I am at with Mugi and Brice - they are segregated 24/7.

A while back I was given a tip to separate fighting dogs and have once used a modified technique. I have also seen it in use once and it did work. Pet correctors, clashing pans and WW3 would not interupt a "to the death" fight BTW - nor will a hose, blankets etc. The main thing to remember is keep yourself safe too, however upsetting a fight.

So, the technique involves two slip leads. While the dogs are fighting loop one lead round the belly of one dog and drag the two dogs without trying to separate to a secure place where you can tie the lead (fence/tree etc) or if there are two people have one take hold and brace against something so they are firm! Then pop the other lead round the belly of the second dog. Then wait and watch while holding the lead loosely but firmly. At the first opportunity when the dog you are holding breaks for a breath (even a smidgeon) or the other dog looses hold fractionally pull the dog you have away, don't interact with it but just gradually drag it away from the opponent which is still tied to the fence or whatever. Try to put a physical barrier between the two dogs then pull yourself together before checking both dogs, once they are calm for injuries. I have seen a single woman manage this with two powerful spaniel sized males who were very engaged in the fight, both dogs needed vet attention but the human was fine although obviously upset.

How awful Pauline. You must feel as if you are walking on eggshells.

As Kelly said, I have dealt with a flying across rooms to take food issue with my guys. It actually was one of the easiest problems I've dealt with.

My situation was I had an 18ish month old entire male who had always been an only dog and I brought a bitch puppy into the house. The older dog had never had to share and believed that any food the puppy was getting was coming literally out of his mouth - hence the charging at her and trying to take it from her.

It happened one time. After that, he was fed with his lead on for about a week and the dogs at a good distance from each other. I made sure that the oldest dog was eating for as long as the puppy was. He tended to finish his dinner first so I used to just put bits of ham into his bowl until she was finished. After about a week, he didn't need his lead any more and had learnt that the puppy eating meant he got more food, not less food.

I never had a problem again. I do regularly reward the dogs for avoiding each other at feeding times and I did the same thing when I brought another puppy in last year.

Going forward, I would get a good behaviourist in to see your boys. I would also get Dexter checked out by a vet.

It is reasonable to expect some squabbling among dogs who live together but what you describe went way beyond squabbling. Doing that amount of damage is not normal dog behaviour. Most dog fights sound and look horrendous but usually there are very little if any injuries.

It could be that Dexter is not well or that the recent hormone changes have upset him.

Regarding splitting up fights, noise, water, towels over them, putting a broom or something between them and if you have to, taking them by the base of the tail or back legs and pulling them apart are the recommended ways. Don't grab collars - it's a really good way to get bitten.

Hugs to you. It's a really scary situation.

Thanks for all your advice in reply to spaceman murphy was castrated about 3 or 4 years ago so he was ellies man so to speak and the one and only top dog. When dexter came as a pup the first thing murphy did then was go for him ,everything was fine till dexter was about 5 to 6 months old when one morning after dexter had finished eating [murphy eats slow ] murphy stopped eating stared at dexter who was sat by my side then went for him. In this little fight ,though i thought that was bad at the time, it lasted a short while and a few scratches was the result. A friend told me they were sorting out top dog issues then and that because murphy fled dexter had gained rank. I had dexter done so i would not have pups on my hands [ellie is 8 and un-spayed ] and hopefully both males would be equal and all live in harmony. Considering the first fight involved food albeit murphy eyeballing dexter and now the hide chew issue i think i can conclude that there is no more long lasting treats coming into the house and that murphy simply started something he could not finished. Dexter is so tall so when he pinned murphy down he had full advantage over him. Lets hope murphy learnt a lesson not to start a fight again and if there is to be a top dog it will have to be dexter for his health sake. In murphys defence from his point of view he was watching ellies back so to speak and took great exception to dexter trying to claim another chew so acted accordingly in his eyes ,pity he did not realise how much taller and stronger dexter has got. Anyway they seem ok today and although still wary ,mainly murphy for obvious reasons i think they should get back to normal soon but i am still separating them while i am out and while murphys staples are still in [out friday ].